Comments on: The Torture of Jesus http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/the-torture-of-jesus/ ...traversing the wide expanse... Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:27:11 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Wes Ellis http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/the-torture-of-jesus/#comment-95 Wes Ellis Tue, 01 Apr 2008 03:56:50 +0000 http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/?p=50#comment-95 nate, crucifixion, however you paint it, was an example to whoever was watching of what happens when someone crosses Rome. I appreciate your comment and you are right that there was a very deep spiritual element to what was happening on the cross. But I would argue that it is wrong to think that Jesus' teachings would have been understood as politically neutral. Take the so-called beatitudes, for example, it's quite a statement to say "blessed are those who are persecuted." This would have been read as a slap in the face to Roman persecutors. I acknowledge that the Gospels are trying to emphasize the Jewish rejection of Jesus (this is probably because by the time they were being written the Christian faith was being formed as distinct from Judaism for the first time in history) so they steer clear of putting direct blame on Rome. But, may I suggest, Roman condemnation would have already been assumed by the reader thus more convincing was necessary in the other direction, forcing the author to emphasize the Jewish condemnation. May I suggest a book to help: Though I don't agree with all of his conclusions, J.D. Crossan's "God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now" has some very good perspectives on Jesus' teachings in this direction. http://www.amazon.com/God-Empire-Jesus-Against-Rome/dp/B0013L2EJ0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207021687&sr=8-5 nate,
crucifixion, however you paint it, was an example to whoever was watching of what happens when someone crosses Rome.
I appreciate your comment and you are right that there was a very deep spiritual element to what was happening on the cross. But I would argue that it is wrong to think that Jesus’ teachings would have been understood as politically neutral. Take the so-called beatitudes, for example, it’s quite a statement to say “blessed are those who are persecuted.” This would have been read as a slap in the face to Roman persecutors.
I acknowledge that the Gospels are trying to emphasize the Jewish rejection of Jesus (this is probably because by the time they were being written the Christian faith was being formed as distinct from Judaism for the first time in history) so they steer clear of putting direct blame on Rome. But, may I suggest, Roman condemnation would have already been assumed by the reader thus more convincing was necessary in the other direction, forcing the author to emphasize the Jewish condemnation.
May I suggest a book to help:
Though I don’t agree with all of his conclusions, J.D. Crossan’s “God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now” has some very good perspectives on Jesus’ teachings in this direction.

http://www.amazon.com/God-Empire-Jesus-Against-Rome/dp/B0013L2EJ0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207021687&sr=8-5

]]> By: nate http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/the-torture-of-jesus/#comment-84 nate Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:08:02 +0000 http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/?p=50#comment-84 I agree, but feel it is important to delineate between the "nature of oppression in the crucifixion; that it, is was less political and more internally religious. Sure, Jesus lived in the midst of Roman imperialism, but the oppression so often spoke of in the gospels is that of a spiritual blindness--in which Jesus' own people, the spiritual leaders, were blind to spiritual, not political salvation. Jesus makes little to no attempt speak out against Roman oppression. In fact he benevolently agrees to taxation (historically heavy taxation...heavier for those, like Jesus, who did not posses the coveted Roman citizenship) when he says, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Jesus was not a political activist, and the torture he suffered under Roman rule was at the request of the subjects of his Judaic reformation. At least that's my opinion, which could very well be wrong. I agree, but feel it is important to delineate between the “nature of oppression in the crucifixion; that it, is was less political and more internally religious. Sure, Jesus lived in the midst of Roman imperialism, but the oppression so often spoke of in the gospels is that of a spiritual blindness–in which Jesus’ own people, the spiritual leaders, were blind to spiritual, not political salvation. Jesus makes little to no attempt speak out against Roman oppression. In fact he benevolently agrees to taxation (historically heavy taxation…heavier for those, like Jesus, who did not posses the coveted Roman citizenship) when he says, “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” Jesus was not a political activist, and the torture he suffered under Roman rule was at the request of the subjects of his Judaic reformation.
At least that’s my opinion, which could very well be wrong.

]]> By: wellis68 http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/the-torture-of-jesus/#comment-67 wellis68 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 04:36:48 +0000 http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/?p=50#comment-67 Danny, Yes, you are certainly correct. I believe you are referring to the sentence: "Although placing Jesus’ death in the realm of abstract thought can be easy, the thought of torture could not be more concrete." That sentence was not clear. What I meant by it is that it can be easy for us to reduce the death of Jesus to a theological abstraction, whereas torture brings Jesus suffering back into flesh-and-blood terms. Danny,
Yes, you are certainly correct.

I believe you are referring to the sentence: “Although placing Jesus’ death in the realm of abstract thought can be easy, the thought of torture could not be more concrete.”

That sentence was not clear. What I meant by it is that it can be easy for us to reduce the death of Jesus to a theological abstraction, whereas torture brings Jesus suffering back into flesh-and-blood terms.

]]> By: coldfire136 http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/the-torture-of-jesus/#comment-66 coldfire136 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:48:11 +0000 http://coldfire136.wordpress.com/?p=50#comment-66 I know that you already know this, but I think we need to be careful how quickly we call the death of Jesus "easy." The idea of God being dead for three days is by no means easy---even in abstract thought. I know you don't mean to lessen the fact of his death, but I just wanted to point that out. I know that you already know this, but I think we need to be careful how quickly we call the death of Jesus “easy.” The idea of God being dead for three days is by no means easy—even in abstract thought. I know you don’t mean to lessen the fact of his death, but I just wanted to point that out.

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